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This was a pamphlet that I found in my fathers library after he passed. I like it a lot.
Oh people of the Book
(Let us) come to an agreement between us and you
that we shall worship none but Allah and ascribe no partners to Him
and none of us shall take as lords other than Allah.
(Al 'Imran 3:64)
This verse or sign ('ayat) from the Qur'an is an injunction that is binding upon all Muslims. We are told- nay commanded- to try to reach an agreement with the People of the Book, who are otherwise defined as the followers of earlier revelation meaning Christians, Sabians, and Jews.
The use in the above text of the Name "Allah" means nothing more and nothing less than what may be understood as, "God".
However, since the English word "God" can also be spelled "god", it yields unfortunate derivatives such as gods, goddess, and goddesses. As such it is simply not the same at all as the word Allah, which has neither root nor derivative, gender nor number.
The Name Allah may appear strange to Jewish readers of this essay, so I have elected to spell it as G-d ~which is to say:
Hear oh Israel, YHVH, our G-d, YHVH (is) One
The word in the verse or, more correctly, sign ('ayat) which is translated into English as "an agreement" (kalimah) may be also understood to mean "an equitable word" or "a common tenet" or, even, "a shared revelation".
Certainly it is true that Muslims and Jews both share a belief in a book, and a "Book" moreoever in which the One from whom the revelation comes insists upon His Own Ultimate Singularity.
The desert dwellers (bedu) describe what is meant by that Naming of the Unnamable by telling this tale or one like it:
"A man and his wife were riding in the desert two days out from the last waterhole and three days forward to the next when a snake startled their camel, who shied and threw them.
The man hit the ground, broke his neck and died immedietly. Simultaneously the camel ran away with all of their baggage including the food and all the water.
The woman was left quite alone in the middle of the desert.
To Whom did she cry?
To Whom did she appeal?
Whom did she beg for mercy?
And Who was it that might even "hear" that plea?
Whoever and whatever that is, is what is meant by Allah"
Is that different than what is meant by G-d?
If either of us think that Being to whom she cried is somehow different for a Muslim and a Jew, then it would be hard to imagine that there was any real possibility of sincere dialogue between a Muslim and a Jew.
If we can agree that we are talking about more or less the same Being, then I would say that the surest basis on which dialogue between Muslim and Jew can best proceed is on our common belief in the same G-d; One without an other, totally indivisable.
Let me make clear that I, as a praciticing and, inshaAllah, sincere Muslim, firmly believe, without any doubt attached to that belief, that the woman left alone in the desert calling upon Allah and, let us say, a Jewish woman who fell off her sleigh in the snows somewhere on the Russian border fleeing, perhaps, a porgom and, alone in that frozen waste, calling upon Ha Shem must necessarily be calling on One and the Same Being.
For in Truth there is no other to whom any of us can call in our hour of need nor has there ever been nor ever be.
When a Muslim reads the Torah, he or she finds so many parallels that there can be no real question of our shared beliefs and, indeed, their common origin:
In Yeshayahu (Isaiah) 44:6 we find:
"I am the first and I am the last and beside Me there is no G-d"
In the Surah al-Hadid 57:3 we find:
He is the First and the Last, the Outer and the Inner, and He is the knower of all things.
(what follows is three pages of similarities in verses from the Torah and the Qur'an, which I am going to bypass right now, but may type out later if this thread becomes active)
Some orientalists hold that such parallels simply are a result of "borrowing", whilst particularists and exclusivists among jews, as well as many Christians, maintain that such correspondances or similarites are nothing but a form of plagerism.
As though G-d chose to speak with one side of the family and not the other.
However those who believe in, and are aware of the existance of revelation, prophecy and prophets know that it is not a question of borrowing or plagerism but rather that revelation is a reality. They know that since G-d is One, what comes from G-d through the agency of prophecy and revelation must necessarily bear witness to the same Divine origin.
Since most people who may be reading this essay may not be familiar with what Muslims actually believe, let me list a few of the basic beliefs that Muslims, regardless of region of origin or school (madhab), hold in common:
G-d is One.
G-d is the Creator of man and woman and all of creation.
Both man and woman have a unique purpose in that creation.
G-d has clarified that purpose over time through Revelation to Prophets which have recorded in various Books including, but not limited to, the Torah, Tehillim (Psalms), or the Zabur, the Injil or Evangels and the Qur'an or the Recital.
These Revelations have been brought to the people through Angels, who are beings of light, and through certain selected and chosen members of the human race formed of water, clay, and spirit, called Prophets or Awakeners (anbiya), and Messengers (rasul0, peace be upon them all.
These last ~ the Messengers or Rasul ~ have, besides the task of awakening the people around them from their deep unconscous sleep, the responsiblity of delivering a revealed message which contains the matrix of the specific religious way of life (din) which G-d has prescribed for human beings.
These are Abraham, Moses, David, Jesus, and Muhammad, peace be upon them.
What they brought is called the Law, otherwise known is Arabic as shari'ah, literally, "the broad path that leads to water".
To be continued as time permits, inshaAllah....
Oh people of the Book
(Let us) come to an agreement between us and you
that we shall worship none but Allah and ascribe no partners to Him
and none of us shall take as lords other than Allah.
(Al 'Imran 3:64)
This verse or sign ('ayat) from the Qur'an is an injunction that is binding upon all Muslims. We are told- nay commanded- to try to reach an agreement with the People of the Book, who are otherwise defined as the followers of earlier revelation meaning Christians, Sabians, and Jews.
The use in the above text of the Name "Allah" means nothing more and nothing less than what may be understood as, "God".
However, since the English word "God" can also be spelled "god", it yields unfortunate derivatives such as gods, goddess, and goddesses. As such it is simply not the same at all as the word Allah, which has neither root nor derivative, gender nor number.
The Name Allah may appear strange to Jewish readers of this essay, so I have elected to spell it as G-d ~which is to say:
Hear oh Israel, YHVH, our G-d, YHVH (is) One
The word in the verse or, more correctly, sign ('ayat) which is translated into English as "an agreement" (kalimah) may be also understood to mean "an equitable word" or "a common tenet" or, even, "a shared revelation".
Certainly it is true that Muslims and Jews both share a belief in a book, and a "Book" moreoever in which the One from whom the revelation comes insists upon His Own Ultimate Singularity.
The desert dwellers (bedu) describe what is meant by that Naming of the Unnamable by telling this tale or one like it:
"A man and his wife were riding in the desert two days out from the last waterhole and three days forward to the next when a snake startled their camel, who shied and threw them.
The man hit the ground, broke his neck and died immedietly. Simultaneously the camel ran away with all of their baggage including the food and all the water.
The woman was left quite alone in the middle of the desert.
To Whom did she cry?
To Whom did she appeal?
Whom did she beg for mercy?
And Who was it that might even "hear" that plea?
Whoever and whatever that is, is what is meant by Allah"
Is that different than what is meant by G-d?
If either of us think that Being to whom she cried is somehow different for a Muslim and a Jew, then it would be hard to imagine that there was any real possibility of sincere dialogue between a Muslim and a Jew.
If we can agree that we are talking about more or less the same Being, then I would say that the surest basis on which dialogue between Muslim and Jew can best proceed is on our common belief in the same G-d; One without an other, totally indivisable.
Let me make clear that I, as a praciticing and, inshaAllah, sincere Muslim, firmly believe, without any doubt attached to that belief, that the woman left alone in the desert calling upon Allah and, let us say, a Jewish woman who fell off her sleigh in the snows somewhere on the Russian border fleeing, perhaps, a porgom and, alone in that frozen waste, calling upon Ha Shem must necessarily be calling on One and the Same Being.
For in Truth there is no other to whom any of us can call in our hour of need nor has there ever been nor ever be.
When a Muslim reads the Torah, he or she finds so many parallels that there can be no real question of our shared beliefs and, indeed, their common origin:
In Yeshayahu (Isaiah) 44:6 we find:
"I am the first and I am the last and beside Me there is no G-d"
In the Surah al-Hadid 57:3 we find:
He is the First and the Last, the Outer and the Inner, and He is the knower of all things.
(what follows is three pages of similarities in verses from the Torah and the Qur'an, which I am going to bypass right now, but may type out later if this thread becomes active)
Some orientalists hold that such parallels simply are a result of "borrowing", whilst particularists and exclusivists among jews, as well as many Christians, maintain that such correspondances or similarites are nothing but a form of plagerism.
As though G-d chose to speak with one side of the family and not the other.
However those who believe in, and are aware of the existance of revelation, prophecy and prophets know that it is not a question of borrowing or plagerism but rather that revelation is a reality. They know that since G-d is One, what comes from G-d through the agency of prophecy and revelation must necessarily bear witness to the same Divine origin.
Since most people who may be reading this essay may not be familiar with what Muslims actually believe, let me list a few of the basic beliefs that Muslims, regardless of region of origin or school (madhab), hold in common:
G-d is One.
G-d is the Creator of man and woman and all of creation.
Both man and woman have a unique purpose in that creation.
G-d has clarified that purpose over time through Revelation to Prophets which have recorded in various Books including, but not limited to, the Torah, Tehillim (Psalms), or the Zabur, the Injil or Evangels and the Qur'an or the Recital.
These Revelations have been brought to the people through Angels, who are beings of light, and through certain selected and chosen members of the human race formed of water, clay, and spirit, called Prophets or Awakeners (anbiya), and Messengers (rasul0, peace be upon them all.
These last ~ the Messengers or Rasul ~ have, besides the task of awakening the people around them from their deep unconscous sleep, the responsiblity of delivering a revealed message which contains the matrix of the specific religious way of life (din) which G-d has prescribed for human beings.
These are Abraham, Moses, David, Jesus, and Muhammad, peace be upon them.
What they brought is called the Law, otherwise known is Arabic as shari'ah, literally, "the broad path that leads to water".
To be continued as time permits, inshaAllah....
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Unsu...
Re: Thoughts on Some Possibilities for Muslim-Jewish Dialogue
Mon, March 19, 2007 - 10:51 AM
Cont.
In accord with that Law, all human beings have a responibility to actively worship G-d by submitting ('istislam) to the will of G-d by faithfully carrying out certain prescribed ritual practices and living their lives in submission ('islam) to G-d.
This way of life (din) may be at variance with the ways and customs of others among whom one lives. Nevertheless, the Order is the Order and our response is "we hear and we obey" (Q 2:285), however it may be that the world around us may view us, for it is a fundamental duty (mitzva) of the submitted one (muslim) to fullfill the Revealed Command(s) of G-d.
All human beings are responsible for both their intentions and their actions in accord with what G-d has revealed in the Law.
In that Law the parameters and boundaries of what is pure and thus permissable (halal), and what is impure and thus prohibited (haraam) are clearly defined and set out.
G-d has revealed, both through the behaviour (sunnah) of the Awakeners and Messengers, the many shades and subtleties of personal, familial, tribal, and communal modes of action (mu'alamat) or behavior ('akhlaq) that exist between the parameters of what is permissible and what is prohibited.
The Muslim also believes that all human beings will be judged at a time known only to G-d on the basis of what they did with what they knew of the Truth that was clearly revealed to them.
At that time all human beings will be resurrected in another body and gathered together in the Presence of G-d. They will, again in accord with what they knew and what they did with what they knew, be rewarded for the good that they did in this life by being granted an eternally blissful state known as jannah, or the garden, or for the evil that they did in this life by being punished with eternal suffering known as nar, or the fire.
From my own readings in Judaism I realize that, at least in pre-Babylonian Judaism, this last point is not one which we can find agreement on as I understand that the question of immortality of the soul (ar-ruh) as such is not clearly addressed in the Torah (chumash), and there is no doctrine in Biblical Judaism of an after life as such. Arguably, there are certain passages of Torah which point to at least the possiblity of our bodily life in a dimension other than this world.
The most obvious reference is found in Beresith (Genesis 3:23) where, in the story of the expulsion of Adam, peace be upon him, it says, "G-d sent him out of the Garden of Eden to till the ground... and He fixed the angel at the east of the Garden of Eden, and the flaming sword to gaurd the way to the Tree of life."
In any case, with the possible exception of an active doctrine of the after life (al-akhirah) in bodily form, it would appear that we hold many tenets of belief in common.
to be cont. -
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Unsu...
Re: Thoughts on Some Possibilities for Muslim-Jewish Dialogue
Tue, March 20, 2007 - 1:14 AMYohosame:
For me:
There are beautiful souls on this beautiful planet whom you do not yet even know, yet through your meanderings and theirs, paths will cross, love be shared and eternal friendships created. And nothing you might do, or not do, can prevent these serendipities. -
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Unsu...
Re: Thoughts on Some Possibilities for Muslim-Jewish Dialogue
Tue, March 20, 2007 - 6:11 AM
Maktoub -
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Unsu...
Re: Thoughts on Some Possibilities for Muslim-Jewish Dialogue
Tue, March 20, 2007 - 6:25 AMexactly
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cousins/siblings
Tue, March 20, 2007 - 7:16 AMthank you, yohosame for a lovely shedding of light on how directly we are connected. yisrael and yishmael (if one wants to go back farther yet) keep us connected by blood, and the teachings that your father left to you show (as you have been kind enough to give the correlations for) how connected we are by tradition/teaching.
with all this connection and all the conversations i have had with muslim people, whether semitic or not (every bit of it civil and heartening), it reinforces my belief that governments are not people; ie: we are clearly capable of seeing our common ground and having respectful discourse. i believe it is the greed for power that brings people to kill. regardless of what they are getting out of it.
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Re: Thoughts on Some Possibilities for Muslim-Jewish Dialogue
Mon, March 19, 2007 - 4:54 PMkind soul,
My thoughts is even an atheist calling out in that situation would be calling out to the Merciful One, since they are looking for mercy.
But a jew/christian/muslim and any one else, filled with hate and malice could call out to Hashem, Allah, Jesus ECT… in any title and name and call forth Darkness instead.
It is the image inside that makes the connection to the spiritual world, Names matter far less than intent. I have proven this in laboratory experiments using water structuring influenced by people speaking over samples. The results confirm what is in the heart spoken manifest real spiritual energy.
So regardless of the name we call out what is in our hearts is what we connect with.
May all men and women on this earth cry out to the Mercifully One, and not to the gods of war, hate, and destruction.
I would bow with you brother in your holy prayers as I know peace is in your heart. -
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Unsu...
Re: Thoughts on Some Possibilities for Muslim-Jewish Dialogue
Tue, March 20, 2007 - 6:13 AM
"My thoughts is even an atheist calling out in that situation would be calling out to the Merciful One'
yes yes I agree. -
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Unsu...
And it is upon this fitrah that our mutual faith (din) is formed.
Tue, March 20, 2007 - 7:27 AM
Cont.
Oh people of the Book!
(followers of an earlier revelation)
Why argue about Abraham
seeing that the Torah and the Injil were not revealed until after him?
Won't you use your intelligence?
You dispute about that which you have some knowledge,
but why argue about what is unknown to you?
G-d knows and you don't.
Abraham was neither a Jew nor was he a Christian,
but he was one who had turned himself away from all that is false
and surrendered himself to G-d;
and he was not from among those who worship a plurality of gods.
('Al 'Imran 3:65-67)
This Quranic 'ayat may seem strange to a Jewish reader who
naturally sees Abraham, peace be upon him, as the founder of Judaism,
but for muslims this 'ayat points to Abraham (pbuh) as the universal man,
the Father of the believers (Bereshith, Genesis 17:5) and the Friend of G-d
(Dibre Hayamin, 2 Chronicles 17:5)
Equally it points to pure monotheism (at-tawhid) based on conscious
and voluntary self-surrender (al-'islam) to G-d.
Abraham is commonly called the father of the three monotheistic religions,
but from the Islamic perspective, he himself was in actuality the founder of the
proto-religion (dinu-l-hunafa) named in the Qur'an the "Millata 'Ibrahimma" or the
Creed of Abraham (Q 2:135). Those who practiced this creed were known as
the Hunafa (sing. hanifah).
In The Concise Encyclopedia of Islam we find that, "Abraham represents
the primordial man in universal surrender to the Divine Reality before its
fragmentation into religions separated from each other by differences of form."
As such, "The religion of Abraham is a reconsecration, a restoration of the primordial
'norm' (al-fitrah), a spontaneous and sacred conformity to reality that is not
externalised ~ and thus necessarily reduced ~ to the level of law."
This din al-hunafa was, par excellence, the ur-monotheism, for Abraham (pbuh)
was, as is made very clear in the Qur'an, not an idolater but, on the contrary,
a practitioner of the original and primordial semitic unitarianism (at-tawhid) of the
self surrendered (muslimun).
And it is upon this fitrah that our mutual faith (din) is formed.
As for the events of his life, Muslims and Jews also share the threads of a
common story of his destruction of the idols, of his migration, of his wives and
his relatives, of the visit of the angels, of the destruction of the cities by the salt sea,
of the sons he was granted late in life, and, above all, of his willingness to
sacrfice his son at what he believed to be the command of G-d and the merciful
substitution which G-d granted. We also share in his supplications for all those faithful
ones from his seed who would come after him.
All of this presents our common patrimony, even if we necessarily view events from a different perspective.
to be cont.
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father abraham
Wed, March 21, 2007 - 5:47 PMGifted one,
I so agree Abraham was the father of many nations; the Hebrew religion really did not start till the nation was formed when they left egypt till they received the instructions in the desert and crossed over into the land of promise.
So Abraham is truly the father of many faiths because he was a man who not only said no to the little gods but yes to following the One True Master of the Worlds this Loving creator who grieves at how His children are killing each other.
Oh that the kindness of Abraham who again tech us all the way back to peace
Shukran holy Brother, may light continue to dawn on you good heart.
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Re: And it is upon this fitrah that our mutual faith (din) is formed.
Fri, March 30, 2007 - 8:21 AMBrother you're right, you're right you're sooo right....
All is from 1 and all goes to 1.Unity of the Divine, Inseparable and Absolute is the Universal Covenant, .
Moslems know it, and many Christians need to learn it in this generation, and many are asking for it as they can feel deep inside that their "god the father & god the son" separates the inseparable and is a cause of terrible corruption and wickedness in the world.
The Eastern Orthodox Churches, including the Greeks, Serbs, Romanians, Russians, Bulgarians etc along with the Roman Catholic Churches, and most of the Protestant Churches that broke away from the Catholics, all accept the Council of Chalcedon which took place in the 4th Century. This council of the early church declared that Christ had two natures, one Divine nature, and one Human nature. These natures were separate and distinct. He, therefore, did some things as a Man and others as God the Son. When this decision was made, five churches rejected it and refused to accept the legitimacy of the council as a result. The five churches were the Orthodox Churches of Egypt (Copts), Armenia, Malabar (India), Syria (Jacobite) and Ethiopia.
These churches maintained that Jesus Christ had only one nature. This nature was a complete unity of the Divine and Human (Tewahido), which was inseparable and absolute. They argued that everything he did, he did as both Man and God and that there was no interruption in the unity of his nature.
One Blessed Love
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Re: Thoughts on Some Possibilities for Muslim-Jewish Dialogue
Tue, March 20, 2007 - 1:56 PMDear Yohosame.....
Thank you so much.....
For these Heart~Felt Sharings......
For these Rays of Sunshine......
That touches the Hearts.....
May it will cleanse, shed and melt misconceptions.....
Seperations....Divisions....
And Illuminate The Entire Human~Family......
Blessed Be....
SalaamShalom....
Amen & inshaAllah....
Gita. -
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Unsu...
Re: Thoughts on Some Possibilities for Muslim-Jewish Dialogue
Wed, March 21, 2007 - 6:09 PMCont.
Different in the sense that, whilst Torah is more purely narrative,
Qur'an is illustrative and assumes some prior familiarity with the stories
of the prophets, peace be upon them all, in order to more fully understand
the example (mithal) that G-d places before us. And also different because,
though we are seed from the same father,
we are each one of is the 'children' of a different son.
From the more than sixty places that Abraham (pbuh) appears in the Qur'an,
a many faceted picture emerges of the prophet and the man who was
both chosen and who chose to be chosen.
Who is better in religion that the one
who surrenders his entire purpose to G-d, and does his best,
and follows the creed of Abraham
who turned away from all that was false?
And G-d took Abraham as a friend.
(an-Nisa'a 4:125)
I would like to touch briefly on the crucial story of the sacrifice
of his son which is so important to both muslims and jews.
When Abraham (pbuh) was on one of his periodic visits to Makkah
he saw in a dream that he was slaughtering his son (pbuh).
And when (his son) was old enough to work with, (Abraham) said,
"Oh my son, I have seen in a dream that I must sacrifice you,
so look, what is your view?
(His son) said,
"Oh my father. Do what you are ordered.
By the Will of G-d you shall find me steadfast."
And when they had both submitted he laid him face down.
(as-Saffat 37:103)
And as Abraham (pbuh) moved the knife toward the neck of his
son the Angel Gabriel (pbuh), on the orders of G-d, stayed his hand
and replaced his son with a ram. Whereupon G-d called out,
"Oh Abraham! You have fulfilled your vision; truly do We
reward the doers of good. Surely this is a clear trial. And We
ransomed him with a great sacrifice and the left the people of later
times (saying), "Peace be upon Abraham." (Q 37:104-109)
In the Body of Faith by M. Wyschogrod I was deeply struck
by the author's understanding that there is no cheap grace, no
redemption in the midst of an unredeemed world. To be near
G-d is to become a friend of death because of the terrible
danger that surrounds all intimacy with G-d.
The author writes, "The original sacrifice to which all subsequent
sacrifice points is the sacrfifice of man before God. More
specifically, it is the sacrifice of Isaac who is Abraham's promised
son of his old age, the son through whom his seed
will become a great nation. At this point of the origins of
God's Love for Abraham, the love from which all later love for
the Jewish people is derived, the principle is laid down that to
be loved by God requires the willingness to accept death at the
hand of God. The choice of Abraham to carry out this deed
roots it in Israel's deepest experience of fatherhood. The hand
of the father that is stretched out to take the life of the son is thus
deeple engraved in Israel's consciousness. There are those
who maintain that the significant feature of the Isaac sacrifice
narrative is God's intervention, which made the carrying out of
the sacrifice unnecessary and thus abolished human sacrifice
for all time. But this is a rationalistic misunderstanding of the
worst kind... The divine intervention that saves Isaac is
presented as an undeserved act of divine grace neither Isaac
nor Abraham had any right to expect and from which it can clearly
not be inferred that God in any way lacked the right to demand
the sacrifice that he did. Jewish consciousnesss did not infer
from this episode that the ethical in some way rules independantly
and therefor serves to check God's arbitrary demands,
but rather it deduced a model of human behavior defined as
obedience. But it is a very special kind of obedience that is here
to be found. Both Abraham and Isaac are obedient, one to the
command of God and the other to that of his earthly father. Just as
Abraham obeys god, so does Isaac obey his father. And both trust
Him whom they obey. The obedience is not based on terror but on love.
It is as if both knew that they are loved by Him who demands and therefore
nothing bad can come of it... Isaac is so certain of his father's commitment
to him that nothing can shake this certainty, not even the outstretched hand
holding the sharp knife."
To be cont. -
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Re: Thoughts on Some Possibilities for Muslim-Jewish Dialogue
Thu, March 22, 2007 - 2:01 PM"to be loved by God requires the willingness to accept death at the hand of God."
...that's it, isn't it. It's the surrender. Amazing... funny i wouldn't already know (haha).
...and the semantics of the word 'God' and the word 'Allah', very interesting, especially considering I've studied how language creates the realities we live. Nuances and inferences make all the difference in our perceptions of the same physical events. -
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Re: Thoughts on Some Possibilities for Muslim-Jewish Dialogue
Thu, March 22, 2007 - 6:40 PMHey, wait a sec.
Allah was the head of the pagan Arabic pantheon. Muhammad said that he was actually the One God of Abraham. But for centuries before him, Allah was worshipped along with his consort goddesses and attendee deities.
With Jews it was different. They outrightly rejected the gods of their enemies, instead of 'bringing them around'. -
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Unsu...
Re: Thoughts on Some Possibilities for Muslim-Jewish Dialogue
Thu, March 22, 2007 - 7:08 PM -
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Unsu...
Re: Thoughts on Some Possibilities for Muslim-Jewish Dialogue
Thu, March 22, 2007 - 7:33 PM
Cont.
A celebration ('id) of this sacrifice, albeit told form the perspective
of the children of Ibrahim's (pbuh) first-born son, Ishamel (pbuh), is
observed yearly during the rites of the Pilgrimage (hajj) which commemorate
the time when Abraham (pbuh) came to Makkah for the coming of age of Ishamel (pbuh)
who was dwelling with his mother Hagar in "the wilderness of Paran" (Genesis 21:21).
many Muslims believe that it was there he recieved the dream (ruya) from Allah ordering
him to sacrifice his son.
In both forms in which the story is told the point remains sharp and tantalizingly
present for generation after generation of those who have learned to live
with that bright shining knife.
And in our discussion with one another on the subject of the sacrifice of sons,
we must not forget those who claim spiritual kinship through what they
believe was a later sacrifice of a much beloved son for whom there was
no substitution. They too are involved in our story.
It is the depth of the story of Abraham and his children and the all but
endless repercussions and reverberations of that story reaching to this
very minute (I am writing this on the 15th of may 2000 C.E.) that have bound
together the seed of Abraham (pbuh) throughout time to the biblical reality
not only of the past but also of the present moment.
Those without a book have no way of knowing these stories drive the
actual unfolding of events in time and space; thus they never really
know what is happening.
The Qur'an, like the Torah, exists, and indeed lives, in all times.
The many stories and parables they contain are not stories of something
that happened in the past but what is always happening somewhere
here in the present.
A. A. Cohen in his book, The tremendum, remarks on this, saying,
The Passover Haggadah commands that every Jew consider himself
as though he had gone forth on exodus out of Egypt. The grammatical
authority of the Haggadah makes clear that this is no metaphor,
whatever our wish to make apodictic language metaphoric. the authority
is clear: I was really, even if not literally present in Egypt and really, if not
literally present at Sinai."
Similarly we would say that not only were we present at Sinai but,
on some level, Sinai is present in every here and now as is all that
is contained in the Book for it is by means of the Word that sacred
history reaches us as "on a boat connecting the different worlds."
To be cont. InshaAllah -
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Re: Thoughts on Some Possibilities for Muslim-Jewish Dialogue
Thu, March 22, 2007 - 10:23 PM"The Qur'an, like the Torah, exists, and indeed lives, in all times.
The many stories and parables they contain are not stories of something
that happened in the past but what is always happening somewhere
here in the present. "
Unless you guys are just talking to each other...,
If both these books,the Qu'ran and the Torah, are living texts that help us live each day, then they would have to be similar, if not significantly alike. They came into existence at different times and places, messages from the same True God to different people in different circumstances. As a Christian, I was taught that I was a decendant of the Jews, of the heritage of Abraham. Because the message came in different languages, how does this make anyone elses experience less valid or holy?
The age of the original story, it's complexity, it's repetition over millenia is amazing. That we humans, so diverse, so hostile towards one another, how could we agree on anything, much less this complex and difficult story. So the point of sacrificing our one treasured son is acknowledgement that God commands everything, is that right Yo? When we surrender to death, we begin to live. I think I have heard this in some form in many different faiths. The commonality of the story is the significance. To accept God is to accept death, and by accepting death, we truly live. -
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Unsu...
Re: Thoughts on Some Possibilities for Muslim-Jewish Dialogue
Thu, March 22, 2007 - 10:53 PM
"Unless you guys are just talking to each other...,"
~NO~!
~ha ha~
Yes Amelia, surely I agree with you. Everyones experience is valid and holy.
"the point of sacrificing our one treasured son is acknowledgement that God commands everything,
is that right Yo? When we surrender to death, we begin to live."
Well said.
"The commonality of the story is the significance."
Indeed~!
"they would have to be similar, if not significantly alike.
They came into existence at different times and places,
messages from the same True God to different people in different circumstances."
And as the author says:
"And in our discussion with one another on the subject of the sacrifice of sons,
we must not forget those who claim spiritual kinship through what they
believe was a later sacrifice of a much beloved son for whom there was
no substitution. They too are involved in our story."
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Re: "The Qur'an, like the Torah, exists, and indeed lives, in all times."
Sat, March 31, 2007 - 3:07 AM"The Qur'an, like the Torah, exists, and indeed lives, in all times.
The many stories and parables they contain are not stories of something
that happened in the past but what is always happening somewhere
here in the present. "
This is so true, Melia, and thanks for giving me the opportunity to pass this to the author :
I see this as an enormous blessing that a moslem and a jew (me) have come to this conclusion thru their own meditation paths.
Please check this link and see for exemple how 400 hundred years of slavery has become a "genetic" duration :
goddessalchemyproject.tribe.net/th...684
The reason why people can't connect Creation science (genesis),
and science of spontaneous genetic mutation, is due to problems of idolatry of division (god the father and god the son) and trinity misconception.
The word god or deity has been corrupted by idolatry.
"All is from 1 and all goes to 1" is a real effective universal covenant.It doesn't even require the use of the word god or deity.So all you need is wright 1 on a peace of paper, put it in front of you, and take a deep insight into this :
"All is from 1 and all goes to 1.Unity of 1 with no interruption in the unity of it's nature is Inseparable and Absolute."
Every day is a gift of Life, so peolple, emancipate yourselves, enjoy your liberation and tell me about it.
One Blessed Love Everytime. Cool Runnings....
M.
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Re: Thoughts on Some Possibilities for Muslim-Jewish Dialogue
Thu, March 22, 2007 - 8:15 PMYeah, you have a point. Islamic sources tell us that there were people before Muhammad who thought that Allah was the One God.
And there is pretty much nothing we know about pre-Islamic Arabian religion from Non-Muslim sources. -
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Unsu...
Re: Thoughts on Some Possibilities for Muslim-Jewish Dialogue
Thu, March 22, 2007 - 8:37 PM
Usman, is that the totality of what you have to contributre to this thread and its topic? -
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Re: Thoughts on Some Possibilities for Muslim-Jewish Dialogue
Thu, March 22, 2007 - 9:15 PM~yohosame- There is no reason for Muslims and Jews to not feel close to each other on the basis of religion. So what you have said is basically reinforcement. We've discussed the 'Judaization' of Islam here before. Early Muslims relied so much on Jews to give a perspective to the various parables and injunctions in the Quran that at some point authorities had to cry 'enough!'
Of course, to someone who doesn't think like me, your postings would be major news :-) -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.Unsu...
Re: Thoughts on Some Possibilities for Muslim-Jewish Dialogue
Thu, March 22, 2007 - 9:40 PM
great~!
so which one are you, muslim or jew?
oh that's right, you are an athiest.
My interest in sharing this essay is
1. I believe that it more appropriately and effectively addresses the rift between these two faiths and offers some real ground for commonality and peace than the overwhelming amount of politics that I read here
2. I love how the author writes
3. the name of this tribe implies that those active here are interested in finding some common ground for muslims and jews, and, inshaAllah, has some actual members who identify as one or the other, and isn't just a meeting place for politically minded folks who more often then not use these threads to argue. -
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Re: Thoughts on Some Possibilities for Muslim-Jewish Dialogue
Thu, March 22, 2007 - 9:55 PMWe've been talking about how labels are appropriated. But I'm still keeping the Muslim label for quite a few reasons. The Tent is big enough for both of us.
And if you were to follow the politcs being discussed, you'd see a lot of commonalities among the diverse labels. -
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Unsu...
Re: Thoughts on Some Possibilities for Muslim-Jewish Dialogue
Thu, March 22, 2007 - 11:56 PM
"The Tent is big enough for both of us."
That, my friend, is cause for celebration! -
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Re: Thoughts on Some Possibilities for Muslim-Jewish Dialogue
Fri, March 23, 2007 - 12:00 AMSaid with no tildas ~
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Re: Thoughts on Some Possibilities for Muslim-Jewish Dialogue
Thu, March 22, 2007 - 10:49 PMYohosame, thanks for taking the time to share this. It was long and I was busy and only now got around to reading that.
I find the thread beautiful and I should be reading more of the Quran.
As an aside I would like to point out that as someone who resonates also with several non-monotheistic traditions I obviously have issues with some of the statements ("little gods" etc.) and would wish that the common threads be woven around positives rather than negations. I mean, on whom does a Hindu woman in the desert in Rajasthan calls? But I don't want to divert the thread so let's not open a discussion of this here. Thanks again. -
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Unsu...
Re: Thoughts on Some Possibilities for Muslim-Jewish Dialogue
Thu, March 22, 2007 - 11:04 PM
"on whom does a Hindu woman in the desert in Rajasthan calls?"
Oh yes! Exactly....
The author is addressing the essay for a Jewish/Muslim dialogue,
and obviously the use of the story of Abraham (pbuh) is directed towards
the paths that view Abraham (pbuh) as a prophet and define themselves as "monotheistic",
but I think your point is totally aligned with what the author is sharing, and not a diversion at all.
Thank you!
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many g*ds/sessess vs one g*d/dsess
Fri, March 23, 2007 - 7:08 AMas one who has believed many of these theories and come around to a sort of humanistic atheism (with a jewish tradition), i believe that when you are calling on the divine, the divine shall answer. for me it is the divine within. i believe we contain ALL within ourselves, and that when we make spiritual connections that are large and beautiful we create connected energy that is bigger than ourselves (ie; g*d/desses).
does that make my beliefs any less congruent with this story? i am also ndn (native american) and my nation of folks believes (in tradition) that when someone talks story it becomes a part of reality.
i think that the sh'ma (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shema_Yisrael) is a confirmation of the ONENESS of ALL. to me, when i recite the sh'ma (and feel my ancestors breath in my mouth) i am saying 'hear, oh yisrael (and yishmael, and...), our g*d is ONE.' not in a monotheistic way necessarily, but in a unifying way, since that is what i put the energy of my prayers to every time i pray. that we see the ways in which we ALL, not just jews and muslims, are seeking the same essential things, and that we put our differences aside and see each other in spirit. and then i pray for justice, and for vision for all those who are greedy and drunk with power.
as someone who is often judged for who i am, who i love, etc. i wish deeply to just be allowed to live in peace and be respected. i think that's a universal desire. i call on the divine within my soul and i use my jewish heritage to find the words, most of the time. to me, that makes me part of this story. -
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also,
Fri, March 23, 2007 - 7:10 AMyohosame, THANK YOU, for creating a post in which the dialogue has been truly uplifting, from all sides!
this thread is a lovely break. -
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Unsu...
Re: also,
Tue, March 27, 2007 - 7:54 AM
"a confirmation of the ONENESS OF ALL"
YES.
"...When the human being comes to know, to realize, to accept and finally submit to this reality, the first step on the way to peace is taken. At the simplest level this is the rejection of the belief in a deity or partner (shirk) other than Allah in favor of belief in and affirmation of a singular absolute Existent (tawhid). By this act I negate on every level and for all time all multiple limited finite existance. I deny the contingent in the face of the Necessary Absolute. I obliterate the self in the Self, and I reject the quantity for the Quality of the One. I do so because this is the obvious and clear truth. On the simplest level this means I reject all idols, fetishes, objects of cult worship, created being and personalities including my "self" as well as the earth, the moon, the stars, the sun and finally, any idea "I" might have of who or what 'God' might or might not be.."
Thank you angel
Peace -
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Unsu...
Re: also,
Thu, March 29, 2007 - 10:10 AMcont.
In the realm of Biblical Judaism and Qur'anic 'Islam many
avenues of discussion may be opened between Muslim and
Jew if both are open to the understanding of what we may
think of as "multiple right answers", and are imbued with the
knowledge of how the stories of Abraham, or Ishmael or Isaac,
or Jacob and his sons or Joseph and his brothers, of Moses and
Aaron, peace be upon them all, are stories of captivity, exile,
slavery, wandering and return, that continue to play out in time
and eternity.
The basket in which Moses floats is the divine Word through
which he himself is preserved from the flux of historical time.
Pharoah's wish to slay the children of Israel was to forever
drown them in waters of secular one-dimensional history,
so that only those who conform to the norm of a world which
does not wish to know that it is in exile should survive.
H. Corbin in 'Temple and Contemplation' remarks, "Whoever
does not free himself from the norm which recognizes only the
historical, which acknowledge as true only that which is in
time and the documents of history, will never understand that
what hiero-history recounts in the Revelation on Mount Sinai
is not an event which only took place in, let us say, the year
2499 after the Creation. The Revelation on Sinai dwells intem-
porally within the human being, within every Moses who has
been saved from the waters. For this reason it is no less true
to say that the Revelation on Sinai also exists before the
beginning of the world."
Exile in Egypt, the plague, the parting of the sea, the years of
wandering in the wilderness, the coming into land, aren't
simply tales of events in the remote past; but there is in truth
a wilderness in which we wander in the present just as there
is an Egypt where we live in exile and a holy land which is
our true and shared home.
If this can be understood, many other things can be understood,
if there is a will to understand. I must confess, in this instance,
I am not overly optimistic except, perhaps, in the realm of intimate
personal dialogue between secure believers who can see through
to the common Source of our differing beliefs.
As I reviewed a number of books on Judaism in preparing this
essay I sensed that some of the authors found certain parallels
between Judaism and Islam, especially in the relationship
between Sufism and Kaballah. Others were prepared to ac-
knowledge that Islam has had some influence on Jewish customs
and traditions where Muslims and Jews have lived together
for long periods. Yet, overall, the basic attitude of Jews
towards dialogue seems to be one of indifference.
Indeed one author I came across simply said that, "Discussion
(about religion) with Gentiles is likely to be a waste of time
and Jews are advised to abstain. Frankness in particular could
easily lead to injured feelings; there are plenty of things that
are better left unsaid."
At the risk of injuring feelings I must say that, even with a will
to understanding eachother and even with a desire to find some
commonality, a major obstacle remains in our way.
This obstacle to understanding is the prevailing injustice
existing today in the Holy Land. It is clear from this, as we
have seen in our discussion of hiero-historical realities, that
our life together is a continuation in the present of an old story
which has been greatly exacerbated by people with other
agendas.
Muslims find it difficult to understand why, when the ultimate
safe haven from the depradations of the Christian Europeans,
be they Orthodox, Roman, or Protestant, was always in the Muslim
world, Jews in the present time seem to have forgotten that
this has been the historical reality for centuries.
That we will never see truly eye to eye has always been true.
What else is new? But surely indifference in the embrace of
Dar al-Islam under the imperative of darchai shalom must be
preferable to life lived amidst the waves of madness that
periodically sweep Christendom, now the putative friend
of Israel, in its historical drive to kill Jews, individually or wholesale,
or, if not to kill them, then to forcibly convert or exile them.
Jews, for religious reasons related to the laws (halakah)
regarding inter-marraige, will always be a minority among the
peoples of the world. The Holy Land itself is a tiny place in
space; a sliver of land in the jaziratu-l-arabiyah which itself
is an island in the vast and varied seas of the 'Muslim world'.
As a result of "official" policies on both sides, a generation of
young people in the Holy Land is being brought up to hate and
with hatred - on both sides. This cannot lead to good for any
of the believers and it cannot remain a mattern of indifference as
we both understand from the many tragic events that affect so
many of our families - and there is not one family on either
side that remain untouched by what has happened.
Surely in the 5,760 plus years years of recorded history of the
Children of Israel the cyclical process whereby the oppressed
becomes the oppressor and the oppressor is in turn oppressed is
evident despite the cry, "never again."
It would be wise to for everyone to remember the inscription
on the ring of Solomon, peace be upon him; "This too shall
pass."
For this reason alone we cannot remain indifferent to finding
roads of possible understanding or, at least, dialogue between
us if not for our own sake then for the sake of our children and
the unborn. For this reason, if no other, I pray that we may find
these roads to possible understanding and, if nothing else,
that we can at least keep talking to one another.
We know that Jews recognise that among the goyim there exist
the Chasidei Umot Ha-olam. Just as we Muslims are told,
"They are not all alike. Of the people of the Book there are
upright people who recite the revelations of G-d throughout
the night, and prostrate themselves.
"They believe in G-d and in the Final Day, and enjoin the
doing of what is good and forbid the doing of what is wrong,
and they vie with one another in doing good works; and these
are among the righteous.
"And for whatever good they do, they shall never be denied the
reward of it for G-d has full knowledge of those who gaurd
themselves from evil for His Sake." (Q 3:113-115)
WA BAShShIRI-L-LLADhINA 'AMANU WA 'AMILU-S-SALIHAT
And give good news to those who believe and perform righteous deeds.
(al-Baqarah 2:25)
Allah knows best.
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Re: also,
Fri, March 30, 2007 - 4:10 PM"For this reason alone we cannot remain indifferent to finding
roads of possible understanding or, at least, dialogue between
us if not for our own sake then for the sake of our children and
the unborn. For this reason, if no other, I pray that we may find
these roads to possible understanding and, if nothing else,
that we can at least keep talking to one another."
Thank you Dear Yohosame....
Sharing here something i got in the mail today and it resonates strongly with your posts.....
~~~~~
Pour out thy Love upon the Nations
Dvar Torah by Rabbi Ohad Ezrachi
The Passover Seder is upon us. The Seder is a wonderful celebration of spring and freedom, but first we must put matters in order. One of the evils our people has assimilated into itself over the long and bitter years of persecution we have experienced – since as far back as the destruction of the first Temple -- is a sense of enmity towards the gentiles.
During its early stages of tribal culture, Israel fought wars like other nations did, but we had not yet developed the deep seated hatred of the gentiles that characterizes us today. To be sure, during the biblical period there was a self awareness of being a people chosen by "our" G-d to receive the Torah. Thus, "For you are a people consecrated to the Lord your G-d: of all the peoples of the earth the Lord your G-d chose you to be His treasured people." (Deut. 7:6). Still, the above sited verse does not express hatred towards the gentiles.
It should be pointed out that along side this awareness of chosen ness there are also verses that command us to love the stranger who lives among us, and who does not belong to our people. It is a commandment from the Torah to love the stranger, just as it is a commandment to love thy neighbor as thyself, or to love the Lord thy G-d. "And you shall love the stranger, since you were strangers in the land of Egypt." (Deut, chapter 10). And furthermore, "The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as one of your citizens: you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt. I am the Lord." (Lev. 19:34).
We must be particularly aware of the following point as the seder night approaches: The exile in Egypt and the difficulties of slavery which we suffered there are not considered by the Torah to be a justification to hate the Egyptians, or strangers in general, but rather as a source of learning and compassion, love and understanding, things that are so important to a stranger residing in a foreign land. Foreign workers residing today in Israel are a good example (to say nothing of the Arabs, Druze and Bedouin in Israel).
The Torah forbids us to hate gentiles who are close to us. "You shall not abhor the Edomite, for he is your kinsman. You shall not abhor an Egyptian, for you were a stranger in his land." (Deut. 23:8). Again, our bitter history of slavery in Egypt does not make the Egyptian hateful to us, but rather someone whom it is forbidden to hate!
And what about Edom? Edom was a neighboring nation, residing in the Edomite Mountains in the southern part of Transjordan. The Edomites were considered by the Torah to have descended from Esau, the son of Isaac. Ethnically, the Edomites were driven westward by the Nabateans. When the Babylonians destroyed the Temple, the Edomites took advantage of the situation and crushed the ruins of Judea to the very foundations. Later on, during the Second Temple period, they were conquered by the Hasmonean kings and forced to convert to Judaism, finally assimilating into the Israel. Nevertheless, from the mythological standpoint, in the Jewish mind of the Second Temple period, Rome was associated with "Edom," and since Rome adopted Christianity, the Kabbala has seen Christianity as the "religion of Edom." (This, despite the fact that according to archaeological studies the first goddess of Edom was called "Kos[2].")
Although the Torah forbids us to hate our Edomite brothers, the troubles that Edom caused the Judean kingdom led many prophets to pour out wrath and angry prophecies on the Edomites. And despite all this, in the course of the years the Edomites were to Judea and assimilated therein. Thus, many of us of today bear Edomite genes.
Pour out thy wrath:
The verse that most of us are familiar with in the Hagaddah calling upon the Holy One, Blessed by He to pour out his wrath upon the gentiles is taken from the book of Jeremiah (10:25): "Pour out your wrath on the nations who have not heeded you, upon the clans that have not invoked your name. For they have devoured Jacob, have devoured him and consumed him, and have laid desolate his homesteads."
Jeremiah saw the total ruins of Judea, felt the pain of hunger, degradation, death and mourning which he saw with his own eyes. We cannot put ourselves in his place, just as we cannot put ourselves in the place of a holocaust survivor or of someone injured in a terrorist attack. But we can – and we must – ask ourselves if we wish to choose the tradition of hatred and revenge or the commandment of compassion and love. Do we want to raise another generation of Jews on the verse "Pour out thy wrath upon the gentiles," or on "Thou shalt love the stranger/"
The wars and destruction of ancient times should be seen in the broader context. They did not happen just to us. Nations fought one another, conquered and exiled one another and mercilessly killed those who might rise up against them. This is how nations who conquered us behaved, and this is how the kings of Israel – David and Solomon – behaved towards the nations they conquered. This was the morality of war in ancient times. Nothing that was done to us in ancient times was the result of anti-Semitism or the hatred of Jews. These were regional conflicts and wars between great powers.
But the modern period has brought anti-Semitism. There have been many causes of anti-Semitism, and much research has been devoted to the subject. I would like to add only one thing to the subject: We Jews, as well, bear responsibility for the creation of anti-Semitism. Love brings about love, and racism brings about more racism. We should not be surprised that they hate us when so many of our prayers included formulations such as "Pour out thy wrath."
With the conclusion of every synagogue service, worshippers say the "Aleinu" prayer. Three days per week, 365 days per year, the religious Jew says the following: "It is our duty to praise the Lord of everything, to hail the Lord of creation, who did not make us like the nations of the land, and did not place our fate with other peoples. For they worship the empty and meaningless, but we bow down and worship and thank the King of Kings, the Holy One, Blessed by He." We and them. We are great, and they worship the empty and meaningless. They, the Buddhists, the Christians, the Sufis and the Indians. The are all empty and meaningless, and only we have bet on the winning horse of the Holy One, Blessed be He.
I do not want to debate how much of this consciousness was the result of pogroms and to what extent, at least in part, it contributed to the creation of pogroms. But one thing is clear to me: I am no longer willing to continue with this approach, and as part of the Jewish People I admit our own part in the great mistake of hatred between us and the nations of the world, and take responsibility, limited but necessary, to correct the situation. I am not the first one to say this, and thankfully so. The more Jews who pay attention to this, the better.
We must recreate our religiosity. We must take the texts which we have inherited from our forefathers, such as the Passover Hagaddah, scan them with an "anti-virus" that can locate the seeds of hatred among us, and repair the infected files.
The development of hatred, suspicion and enmity damages us more than anything. Not only from the political point of view, but also from the inner perspective of openness to the great oneness of G-d.
In our Seder, we will pray for a freedom that does not require the enslavement or suffering of others. "Pour out they love upon everyone who knows you, and bring close those who do not know you, so that they may know you in truth."
Shabbat Shalom
*************************************************************************************************************
RABBIS FOR HUMAN RIGHTS HAGADDA SUPPLEMENTS 5767
The Four Children at the Seder Table: Which Child Am I?
As we celebrate this Holiday of Freedom, the ending of slavery, we ask, “Who am I, when I hear of human rights abuses? Who will I choose to be when I know that others are suffering?”
Will I be one who does not ask? Will I close the newspaper or turn off the television so that I do not hear? Will I turn my head and heart away?
Will I ask only simple questions? “What is this?” Will I ask what, but never why?
Will I let the evil impulse, my yetzer hara ask: “What has this to do with me?” Will I let the problem belong only to the victims and the do-gooders? Will I distance myself from those in need?
Or will I strive to act in wisdom, to ask: “What are the underlying causes of the problem and what needs to be done to stop the abuse and free the oppressed? What are the laws and what does Gd expect of me?”
May Gd open the eyes of those who do not see, the mouths of those who do not ask, and the hearts of those who do not care, and grant us the wisdom to open our hands to our fellow humans when they are in need - the hand of generosity, the hand of support, the hand of peace and friendship.
www.rhr.israel.net/
~~~~~
Amen & Inshallah....
Keeping Hope Alive....
Peace....
Gita. -
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Unsu...
Re: also,
Fri, March 30, 2007 - 5:22 PM
Dear ~Gita~ Shalom/Salaam
Thank you SO much. This is wonderful to come home to, as it has been one of 'those' days.
I agree, these two different writings resonate with one another beauty-fully.
" Love brings about love, and racism brings about more racism."
.....
I had no idea about the 'empty and meaningless' accusation at the end of every synagogue service!
So I was heartened by his next words:
"But one thing is clear to me: I am no longer willing to continue with this approach... I admit our own part in the great mistake of hatred between us and the nations of the world, and take responsibility, limited but necessary, to correct the situation. I am not the first one to say this, and thankfully so."
This is what we all must do. InshaAllah. G-d Willing.
Amin & Amen~
Shalom/Salaam
PEACE!
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: also,
Fri, March 30, 2007 - 5:56 PMDear Yohosame.....
I'm so grateful for your words and for the positive effect this post brought to your day.....
I wanted to comment on your post and to tell you what i heard from Rabbis here, and how the message that they deliver is the same message of OneNess between all Religions and all Humans, and i couldn't really find the words to explain it because it was so profound for me to listen to them, and while i was thinking about how to write it, this message came into my e-mail box, when i was reading this message and same as you didn't know before about these accusation at the end of every synagoge service! all i could say and feel was Thank you....Thank you.....Rabbi Ohad Ezrachi....For Your words! For Being and For Letting Your Inner~Voice be Heard.....!
"This is what we all must do. InshaAllah. G-d Willing."
Yes~Amen & Inshallah.....
PeaceSalaamShalom Dear~Heart.....
Peace To All....
Gita.
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Re: also,
Fri, March 30, 2007 - 7:38 PMGita,
Thank you for posting this. I feel real hope as I read it. What a beautiful place to speak from. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: also,
Sat, March 31, 2007 - 7:54 AMThank You Melia....
Indeed A Beautiful and Sacred Place....
(Thank you Luna for sending this video)
www.peacefulearth.com/peaceflash.html -
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Re: also,
Wed, April 4, 2007 - 11:58 PMYou are welcome. And thank you for the lovely Peace slide show.
BTW, any one know What happened to Yohosame? I havn't seen him around in at least a week. -
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Re: also,
Mon, June 4, 2007 - 4:27 PMHossam, thank you.
In light of recent posts, it is good for the soul to return here for a reminder and confirmation that we are all ONE !!
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Re: also,
Mon, June 4, 2007 - 6:15 PMThank you Hossam.....
A very good re-Mind-er.....! :) -
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Unsu...
Re: also,
Thu, June 28, 2007 - 10:57 PM
bump & grind
let us return to the
heart of the matter and the
core intention of this tribe. -
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Re: also,
Fri, June 29, 2007 - 3:08 PM"let us return to the
heart of the matter and the
core intention of this tribe."
I'm with you......
Here's a post i recieved and i wish to share it here:
~~~~~
Dvar Torah – Parashat Chukat
Rabbi Michael Schwartz
King Solomon, who according to our tradition was the wisest person who ever lived, was confounded by part of this week’s Torah portion Chukat. He said, “I succeeded in understanding the whole Torah, but, as soon as I reached this chapter about the Red Heifer, I searched, probed and questioned…[quoting Ecclesiastes, saying] ‘I will get wisdom, but it was far from me’". (Yalkut Shimoni 759)
Indeed, much ink has been used throughout the generations to explain why the mitzvah of the Red Heifer is unexplainable. Although the meaning or reason for this and other decrees (chukkim) of the Torah may remain beyond the ability of our human minds to discern, our tradition insists that they must nevertheless be performed as commanded.
The most perplexing aspect of the entire Red Heifer business, however, is the fact that the priests who prepared and performed the Red Heifer ritual to purify the people themselves became impure in the process. The red heifer is a paradox in that it mitamah et hatihorim umitaheret et hat’mei’im: contaminates the pure and purifies the impure.
None of us are wiser than Solomon, and there is no point to add more words to the multitude of those that explain our inability to explain the unexplainable. Yet, even if we cannot understand the meaning or reason for God’s command we can – must – try to understand the peoples’ experience.
In the face of the confused, unfathomable tragedy of death, the priests acted on the bizarre command to take a red heifer and then perform this procedure of purification for those touched by death. Where words could not comfort, perhaps the mourners were helped on some level by the priests’ performance of the Red Heifer ritual.
In the face of all the confused, unfathomable tragedy of those who themselves undergo a sort-of-death when their human rights are violated, when their tzelem elohim is violated, reduced or demeaned, we too must act to try to help. It is the law of the Torah to somehow confront the confusing reality in which we live, to act directly to fix what’s broken in our society, to reach out to victims, to begin the process of purifying that which has been made impure.
The priests were willing to take up the Red Heifer and thus contaminate themselves in order to purify others. In our day we must all be willing to get our hands dirty if necessary to deal with the most challenging issues lurking in the darkest corners of our society. To confront the human rights violations against our fellow citizens and our neighbors the Palestinians day in and day out - violations committed in our own names as Israelis – requires an amazing willingness by staff and volunteers to contaminate themselves with the bitter reality of all that is done under the sun. They – we - do this work because it protects the dignity of each of us created b’tzelem elohim, in the Image of God.
We cannot understand the why and wherefore of the Red Heifer commandment. But just as Ben Azzai insisted that the mere fact of our being created in the Image of God is the most important ruling of the Torah, Samson Raphael Hirsch came to no less an emphatic insistence that the decrees (chukkim) of the Torah are intelligible after all. Just as chukei hateva – the laws of nature – can be described, so too, he says, “if you could put yourself so completely also in the place of other beings . . . then you would find it as easy to grasp the chukkim as it was for you to understand the mishpatim [laws that make rational sense]. They ask you to regard all living things as God’s property. Destroy none; abuse none; waste nothing; employ all things wisely...” (Nineteen Letters, ch. 11)
Upholding the laws of the Torah is what Rabbis for Human Rights try to do “in purity” even though, as a consequence, we touch “impurity” and are touched by it. Truly, this work mitamah et hatihorim. But it also mitaheret et hat’mei’im, purifies the impure: defending human rights brings some purity, some holiness, some justice back to the world.
When things go wrong in our society – and there is sadly no shortage of things that go wrong - we are all impure as a result. Doing the holy work of exposing the desecrations perpetrated among us, doing the Torah’s commands for justice where Torah is absent and injustice reigns, bringing Kiddush Hashem (“sanctifying God’s Name”) where others acting in the name of our same Torah have brought chilul H’ (desecrating God’s Name), we help to purify our society once again.
Shabbat Shalom
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Re: reminder
Wed, February 11, 2009 - 8:10 PMHehehe... yeah and that's about it. :) -
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Re: reminder
Tue, March 3, 2009 - 7:23 PM
For me--as to the day ahead of me, now a couple of days, I had hit a void in concentration. --I read really phantasmal Egyptian Coptic relationship with the first Muslim suzerainty then in the 600s, in al-Kahira =the "Victorious", Cairo, & particularly a small beginning part of that metropolis called Fustat... Someone told me recently, the Copts were heavily congregated of former Jews. This Judeophile friend thus may feel this sort of affinity with we Jews, knowing the correlation in our convergent histories. (history IN focus) Fustat whose name, according to this author may have come from the Greek=fussaton, meaning "ditch"--and this could have been a region's characteristic. No one knows, but the conversation I appealed to was a meandering transect of images of loam having human occupancy. It is precisely the tabla rasa caused by inertia when I've given up to the elation of over-standing just what it is before me: that being a conscious map, damned fascinating, but little long term intellectual yield--at least unforgiving sense that something still needs to be articulated. Really imagistic active reading, but I "give-up" to it too easily, rather than parsing what fulminate potential my mind has... Still, it is worth it--my motive is plain.
Cyrus and then Benjamin, the first then second patriarchs of the Copts when the Arab Muslim took control exacting taxation just as Rome & Constantinople, gave in rather quickly to Muslim Arab control. Dhimmi status for Jews and Christians, tho' we could have been in better stead--conditionally. Greek only going out of use slowly over that century, then the gov. using Arabic as well as absorbing Greek episteme (think: da'ath) as they saw what the Christians typically did not--that being "the wisdom of the wise"--to quote their apostle Paul, ought not be killed (the Christian ran from Jewish midrash i.e. the gospel saying KILL the wisdom of the Wise). This proclivity to advance rationalism is a trait we'd been in parallel paths with the Muslims, then & for many centuries.
posted by scott lakes at 11:01 AM
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AboutRAISING MY HAND toward the MARGINALIZING of CONFORMITY...hmmm. In this dispensation the 3rd world man is the Trees & the Cosmopolitan Suit waving his plastic finger, is destined to wander the forest alone. LIGHT plateau - dark CORRIDOR; white black white black: I watched what I saw! The last TIME we gave ourselves to the moment may have been our last reFLECTion before the veil of tears reMINDed us that IT had been a Karmic death.
About Me
Name: scott abraham-lakes
Location: lexington, kentucky, United States
42 yrs. old; I don't believe in subscribing to horoscope--the higher self is too sentient, though an awakening is all we can hope for,and a formality as ridiculous as reading tea-leaves is just drivel: though I would prefer bhang... or variant to ingesting it thereof.
The Spiritual Imagination: Meditation or hitbodedut
For me--as to the day ahead of me, now a couple of days, I had hit a void in concentration. --I read really phantasmal Egyptian Coptic relationship with the first Muslim suzerainty then in the 600s, in al-Kahira =the "Victorious", Cairo, & particularly a small beginning part of that metropolis called Fustat... Someone told me recently, the Copts were heavily congregated of former Jews. This Judeophile friend thus may feel this sort of affinity with we Jews, knowing the correlation in our convergent histories. (history IN focus) Fustat whose name, according to this author may have come from the Greek=fussaton, meaning "ditch"--and this could have been a region's characteristic. No one knows, but the conversation I appealed to was a meandering transect of images of loam having human occupancy. It is precisely the tabla rasa caused by inertia when I've given up to the elation of over-standing just what it is before me: that being a conscious map, damned fascinating, but little long term intellectual yield--at least unforgiving sense that something still needs to be articulated. Really imagistic active reading, but I "give-up" to it too easily, rather than parsing what fulminate potential my mind has... Still, it is worth it--my motive is plain.
Cyrus and then Benjamin, the first then second patriarchs of the Copts when the Arab Muslim took control exacting taxation just as Rome & Constantinople, gave in rather quickly to Muslim Arab control. Dhimmi status for Jews and Christians, tho' we could have been in better stead--conditionally. Greek only going out of use slowly over that century, then the gov. using Arabic as well as absorbing Greek episteme (think: da'ath) as they saw what the Christians typically did not--that being "the wisdom of the wise"--to quote their apostle Paul, ought not be killed (the Christian ran from Jewish midrash i.e. the gospel saying KILL the wisdom of the Wise, (also applies to the pagan wisdom from Greek cosmogony). This proclivity to advance rationalism is a trait we'd been in parallel paths with the Muslims, then & for many centuries.
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referring to Jews amongst Musilms In al-Kahira
Wed, March 4, 2009 - 3:42 AMSorry to double my entry--tried to paste with my older laptop, & I messed up--the top piece is un-editted, the bottom half is what I am trying to say. -
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referring to Jews amongst Musilms ONE G-d according to the Rationalists
Wed, March 4, 2009 - 3:55 AMTHis is somewhat paraphrased from The History of G-d by Karen Armstrong. It refers to the rationalist, an early Shia community's sense of the Ultimate Reality. Reading it, it was easy for me to imagine Moses ben Maimon, Rambam, as having said something quite like it. It would compare quite in line with what many of us know of him, at any rate. The Shi'ites were the Mutazilas, some of whose rulings (jurisprudence)=fihq is still studied at some madrassahs.
If there is thought, then there is the principal to thought, the simple beginnings. If there is intelligence in the world then there is its beginning, the intellect. For every condition there is its potential. This simplicity is known as G-d, according to the rationalists. If we dream, thereby we must exist. To exist then whence that energy promoted reflection upon the necessary condition, there is a principle to existence. Though it may be beyond a dualistic approach as our minds accord, still one may necessarily expect a principal behind that value.
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Re: Thoughts on Some Possibilities for Muslim-Jewish Dialogue
Wed, March 18, 2009 - 2:45 PMThank you for this. It is beautiful.
But why have you unsubscribed...? What a loss for us all. -
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Re: Thoughts on Some Possibilities for Muslim-Jewish Dialogue
Thu, March 19, 2009 - 2:08 AMThis might very well be Hossam. -
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Re: Thoughts on Some Possibilities for Muslim-Jewish Dialogue
Thu, March 19, 2009 - 4:18 AM
"The use in the above text of the Name "Allah" means nothing more and nothing less than what may be understood as, "God". " EL coming from the same root as Allah, means High, or Sky or Above in certain contexts. Elohim was the High G-d or Sky G-d. Allah is this same word I'd imagine. -
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Re: Thoughts on Some Possibilities for Muslim-Jewish Dialogue
Fri, March 20, 2009 - 4:13 AMLet me get to an essential point in the disipline, so important to anyone wanting self-actualization thru devekut. Take this man who was enlightened, a mensch, a non-Jew, even superstitious yet open to personal transformation at the expense of merely accepting hard & fast tradition, while thoroughly embracing it otherwise ... Gandhi!! He in fact believed the Jews were too bound up in legalism at the expense of a sense of spirituality or rather at the expense of lingering to ancient iconic beliefs with little relevance today... Of course, Gandhi could be mostly wrong, under that sway, but as to living with the Other, what obviously would he do endlessly to bridge the radical departure of one community from having compassion with another? He'd work everyday to find just one other way to accept them. Pretty humble, huh? The lesson is plain--and not glittered as in reception and long awaited communion with what one can reach for from a certain POWER Spot. (wait, I flip this thought, so as not to offend...) Our sacred room is one, HaKotel is another, under the right eve of facing the Wailing Wall is where the Shekhina is suppose to emanate--certainly very powerful to find oneself reflecting skyward here. Al-Aqsa, Rachael's tomb for women's blessings on child-birth for Jews or Muslims. It is the places in-between, the temporal kingdom, that Judaism emphasizes. That means, dealing with the now+One World, many people upon its face, yet soulfully inter-dependent had we looked. WE are only talking about identity=usually, so next we need to make a hard decision about the "Other." Judaism doesn't have to wait because their neighbor's instinct is as grave as our own to finesse Higher GRound from mutual resources. From same Source, from the same G-d under the guise of different names... In the end,as Elie Wiesel subscribes, our suffering is only between You & G-d alone...anybody's else doesn't lessen your responsibility to grasp your duty to learn from it. And fulfillment of duty to self necessary makes our neighbor's reality part of your convalescence... -
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Re: Thoughts on Some Possibilities for Muslim-Jewish Dialogue
Fri, March 20, 2009 - 5:33 AMhave enjoyed reading this thread thanks to all who contributed to it
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