http://jewsandmuslims.tribe.net/thread/8e2bc175-807d-4417-a276-bccb5570be5f?format=rss Tribe.net. Local Connections http://jewsandmuslims.tribe.net/thread/8e2bc175-807d-4417-a276-bccb5570be5f#d23b23ad-7124-4a47-9eac-cdf816b8462c <The country is a true modern country, in a sea of slow moving cultures tied too strongly to religion - the anchor holding them back.> Too true. <These same neighbors also like to beat the drum of the evil Israel in order to distract their own populace from their domestic problems - and that works really well to distract them, but it is just holding them back. > Too true. <Hamas and the Palestinians, are held to a lower standard than Israel. Never mind they do teach hate, and they teach it to their children thru children shows(Mickey Mouse look-a-likes hating Israel etc.). They celebrate destruction. It is so unfortunate because their entire populace will continue to suffer because of it.> Too true. All great points. Lost here, for the most part in all probability, but great points. Tue, 08 Sep 2009 01:18:26 GMT http://jewsandmuslims.tribe.net/thread/8e2bc175-807d-4417-a276-bccb5570be5f#d23b23ad-7124-4a47-9eac-cdf816b8462c andrew™ 2009-09-08T01:18:26Z http://jewsandmuslims.tribe.net/thread/8e2bc175-807d-4417-a276-bccb5570be5f#ba4ac90c-d38a-4dd4-9341-e2217504a49f Ultimately, since the Arab countries are repressive to freedom of speech, are not democratic, or true democracies, have enormous social problems of their own due to poverty, those countries have problems progressing. Israel, a country with enormous problems with its neighbors and with the Palestinians is an amazing success story economically, educationally, in most ways that can be measured for modern societies. What is the big difference between Israel and its neighbors, true democracy with real freedom of speech allows the country to progress. The country is a true modern country, in a sea of slow moving cultures tied too strongly to religion - the anchor holding them back. These same neighbors also like to beat the drum of the evil Israel in order to distract their own populace from their domestic problems - and that works really well to distract them, but it is just holding them back. Hamas and the Palestinians, are held to a lower standard than Israel. Never mind they do teach hate, and they teach it to their children thru children shows(Mickey Mouse look-a-likes hating Israel etc.). They celebrate destruction. It is so unfortunate because their entire populace will continue to suffer because of it. And in the meantime, Israel will continue to be a leader in technology of all sorts. The contrast at times seems ridiculous... ***AND GLOBILIZATION is where this discussion begins & ENDS Tue, 09 Jun 2009 20:08:07 GMT http://jewsandmuslims.tribe.net/thread/8e2bc175-807d-4417-a276-bccb5570be5f#ba4ac90c-d38a-4dd4-9341-e2217504a49f scott 2009-06-09T20:08:07Z http://jewsandmuslims.tribe.net/thread/8e2bc175-807d-4417-a276-bccb5570be5f#73e913b0-6747-41d4-a625-b3024504f6be My visit to a concentration camp was in the Summer of 1984--the yr I graduated from h.s--we had also visited E. Berlin during this trip. Just now listening to DEmocracy Now, Hanna Levy-Hass' book was discussed by her & I checked out a blog piece by her per her survivor mother & her travesty by being a victim in Bergen-Belsen. When I sauntered around the grounds of the choice destination for we the ugly Americans, within the confines of the facilities, we came across a torture chamber. There was a yellow dividing line remanding us to its periphery--but I wondered at the impact of this historical inhumanity --man against man, against nature, against eunomia ("right-order" as in morality & belief in G-d), and yet saw no irony in my insignificance as an observer & student of History. I wanted to cross that line, in other words--but then the crowd around me made my aloof self-promotion in its peak assignment, wash into just that small part of me that said I should BE learning to care, to BE more serious, to make allowance for what I'd potentially misunderstand. Levy-Hass says, as I imagine many progressives understand, that the Holocaust should not be part of a political tool making the pain of Palestinians marginal, & likewise, the memory of those who perished ought not remain UN-assessed--in what the Germans/Western Christianity committed, just as communities the world over similarly have faced in this kind of self-denial causing ethic cleansing. How can anybody be right, if everybody is wrong? Or as Amos Oz of Peace Now said, starting with both proximal communities, we have to say they are both Right. GLOBILIZATION: Just as we here in the West seem connected to the impulse of national actvities, in a poltical arena, socially, and in finding our entertainment thru technology--many Muslims wonder why so many have access to these modernities and how it is that they don't. And, as they watch their educated youths go and seek something in the Westernized axis, many are naturally going to blame the West for luring away what necessarily IS a resource that would have provided for the welfare of said community. **THIS is precisely what happened to Jews whose communities were being denied access to material resources (*pogroms, institutional racism...etc), thus lost great minds to other socio-religio ideals, and as such hard stances (think Wahabis of S. Arabia, Al Kaeda, Hezbollah etc) were taken to create communities' coherence: Zionism in focus here. A secular political movement at first, turned in upon itself as the cause for their own--necessary rejected opposing ideologies...or as such mutually arising communities: Palestinians in focus here. Tue, 09 Jun 2009 13:26:43 GMT http://jewsandmuslims.tribe.net/thread/8e2bc175-807d-4417-a276-bccb5570be5f#73e913b0-6747-41d4-a625-b3024504f6be scott 2009-06-09T13:26:43Z http://jewsandmuslims.tribe.net/thread/8e2bc175-807d-4417-a276-bccb5570be5f#e86d044f-556f-4826-b144-bbfdf14a236e Thanks for this offering Scott...is that Bob Dylan?! I am feeling it is so...yes, a blanket generalization about anything does not serve cosncious questioning and communication. Thu, 14 May 2009 20:00:08 GMT http://jewsandmuslims.tribe.net/thread/8e2bc175-807d-4417-a276-bccb5570be5f#e86d044f-556f-4826-b144-bbfdf14a236e SKeye 2009-05-14T20:00:08Z http://jewsandmuslims.tribe.net/thread/8e2bc175-807d-4417-a276-bccb5570be5f#107997ac-af72-4a95-8393-0755794cf952 It would be good to reference now, from Ahmed Akhbar's book Journey INTO Islam, that Muslims are equally as offended when the term Islamofascism is used. Fundementalist yes, as literalist and their apologists loose their way under for ALL the Monotheists, have deterred us from reasonable dialogue in the mutual arising scenarios of these communities. So, Dylan says, you can call him a Zionist for life, the last time he was in Jerusalem. Friggin' powerful words from a genie of compassionate ideas about the underdog. I do contend his feeling for what is right for the OTHER would not be lost on him...just saying!! Wed, 13 May 2009 20:22:51 GMT http://jewsandmuslims.tribe.net/thread/8e2bc175-807d-4417-a276-bccb5570be5f#107997ac-af72-4a95-8393-0755794cf952 scott 2009-05-13T20:22:51Z http://jewsandmuslims.tribe.net/thread/8e2bc175-807d-4417-a276-bccb5570be5f#2af331d4-337f-4374-b022-ec0bca0556f7 The following excerpt is from a book('rule by secrecy' by Jim Marrs) that I feel offers a clear distinction between Hebrews, Jews and Zionists and the issue of anti-Semitism that often confuses the discussions we have in the Jews and Muslims Together tribe. It also offers a little insight into the nature of 'conspiracy' and the reason as to why there can be a shying away from its consideration. May this help to bridge and not distance. ~~~~~~~~~~~ It was also about the time of Nathan's arrival in London that Mayer Bauer changed his name to Rothschild (literally "red shield") taken from a red shield emblem on the ghetto home of his ancestors. This name change undoubtedly was an attempt to separate his family from the raging anti-Semitism prevalent in Germany at the time. To further insulate the family from such racism, the Rothschilds used a stable of registered agents and front men to operate their far-flung business dealings. This may be a good point to dismiss claims that the modern secret societies, either wittingly or otherwise, are furthering the aims of an international Jewish conspiracy. While it is undoubtedly true that many of the world's wealthy elite have a Jewish heritage, one should not be sidetracked by the issue of race or religion. There is no evidence of substance to prove that Jews or Hebrews----or any other racial or religious group----are any more greedy or ambitious than anyone else. Furthermore, any discussion of anti-Semitism is frequently lost in a misunderstanding of the distinction between Hebrews, Jews and Zionists. The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language describes a Hebrew as a member of the Semitic people, a race descended from Abraham of the Old Testament which, ironically enough, also includes most Arabs. A Jew, on the other hand, is a[n] adherent of Judaism, a religion handed down by the Israelites. A Zionist is a member of a political movement concerned with preserving and furthering the aims of the state of Israel. These constitute three separate issues: race, religion, and politics. To lump these singular issues into one single conspiracy is both wrong headed and contrary to the historical evidence. Most people in modern America realize that it is wrong to judge a person on race, an attribute over which that person has no control. Likewise, it is considered bad manners by most to publicly attack another person's religion. Only one's politics are fair game for dissension and argument. It is here, in the realm of politics,that much confusion has been sown. Supporters of Zionism for years have skillfully attacked their opponents as "anti-Semites" to the extent that many Americans, Jews and gentiles alike and especially the media, are loath to even question the policies of Israel no matter how odious. Furthermore, the broad brush of anti-Semitism frequently has been used to besmirch anyone offering a conspiratorial view of history. While it may be true that secret organizations in the past were built along both racial and religious grounds, attempting to bring race or religion into a discussion of modern secret societies and conspiracies only serves to confuse the issue and repel conscientious researchers. Although many international financiers are of Jewish descent, it is no more fair to accuse the Hebrew race of an international conspiracy than it would be to blame all Caucasians for the acts of Hitler's Nazis. W. Cleon Skousen, a former FBI agent who served as police chief of Salt Lake City in the late 1950s, wrote about international conspiracies in several books, including The Naked Communist. He, too, came to understand that racial identification was "an oversimplified explanation for the rise of the global power structure which has snared mankind." He explained, "In studying the global conspiracy it is important to keep in mind that it was not any particular race or religion but the 'passion for money and power' which has drawn the tycoons of world finance into a tightly knit, mutual-aid society." But such considered and reasoned understanding of anti-Semitism was not in vogue during Mayer Rothschild's time. So he built his financial empire while studiously attempting to avoid the racism of his day. This is not to imply that the Rothschilds were not proud of their Jewish ancestry. By all accounts, family leaders have been most devout in their observance of Jewish traditions and customs. Over the years, the family has donated liberally to Jewish causes and may have even played a vital role in establishing the state of Israel, although some conspiracy writers claim that Rothschilds interest in Israel more concerns the control of oil than love of a homeland. One method utilized to avoid racism was the enlistment of non-Jewish operatives as fronts for the Rothschild organization. At the time of the American Civil War, J. P. Morgan publicly made anti-Semitic remarks, yet he furthered the goals of the Rothschilds. "How much of Morgan's anti-Semitism was real and how much may have been a pragmatic a guise is, in the final analysis, of little importance....Regardless of one's interpretation of the nature of the relationship between the Houses of Morgan and Rothschild, the fact remains that it was close, it was ongoing, and it was profitable to both. If Morgan truly did harbor feelings of anti-Semitism, neither he nor the Rothschilds ever allowed them to get in their way of business," noted author griffin. According to author Icke, Morgan and Rockefeller were wealthy "gofers" who used Rothschild financing to "build vast empires which controlled banking, business, oil, steel, etc., and ran the United States economy in the way the Oppenheimers do in South Africa." ~~~~~~~~~~~ (end of excerpt) Wed, 13 May 2009 19:48:16 GMT http://jewsandmuslims.tribe.net/thread/8e2bc175-807d-4417-a276-bccb5570be5f#2af331d4-337f-4374-b022-ec0bca0556f7 SKeye 2009-05-13T19:48:16Z