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Comments? Opinions? Rants?
I have always valued this attempt at open dialog and respect the informed and counseled discussion of it's members. I recently read the book Sway, by the Bronfman brothers. The book surveys the literature about what makes us choose emotional rather than logical solutions to crisis. His thesis is that diagnosing, that is labeling and assigning blame, is not useful to the solution of the problem. This tribe is at it's very best when we discuss solutions, not a history no one can now change.
<<Obama Endorses Two-State Solution for Arab-Israeli Conflict
By Mohamed Elshinnawi
Washington
06 February 2009
Shortly after a Gaza ceasefire went into effect between Israel and the Islamic group Hamas, President Barack Obama sent his Middle East envoy to the region to kick-start a process to end the decades-long Palestinian-Israeli conflict.
Special envoy George Mitchell cautions that reaching a peace agreement will be very difficult
US special envoy George Mitchell cautions that reaching a peace agreement will be very difficult
The effort will focus on the so-called "two-state solution," which would establish a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip coexisting peacefully alongside the Jewish state.
"Lasting peace requires more than a long cease-fire, and that's why I will sustain an active commitment to seek two states living side by side in peace and security," Obama said.
Obama sent his special envoy, former Senator George Mitchell, to the region for talks with Arab and Israeli leaders. In Jerusalem, Mitchell said reaching a peace agreement will be tough.
"The tragic violence in Gaza and in southern Israel offers a sober reminder of the very serious and difficult challenges and, unfortunately, the setbacks that will come."
Attempts to evacuate small settlements in the West Bank have sparked violence between Israeli troops and settlers who refuse to leave
Attempts to evacuate small settlements in the West Bank have sparked violence between Israeli troops and Jewish settlers who refuse to leave
Jewish settlements in the occupied West Bank constitute one of the toughest problems on the way to peace.
Some 200 thousand Jewish settlers live there. Most would have to be relocated in Israel proper, under the usual view of the two-state solution.
But Israeli attempts to evacuate some small settlements have sparked violence between Israeli troops and settlers who refuse to leave.
Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has said Israel is willing to remove 60 thousand West Bank settlers for peace, a small fraction.
Likud leader Benjamin Netanyahu has said he will not ask settlers to leave the West Bank
Likud leader Benjamin Netanyahu has said he will not ask settlers to leave the West Bank
Israeli elections in February could make Likud leader Benjamin Netanyahu the next prime minister. He says he will not ask any settlers to leave the West Bank. In November, he suggested he is not for a two-state solution.
"I think that rather than build peace exclusively from the top down with political agreements, we have to add to the political process building peace from the bottom up by making the lives of our Palestinian neighbors a lot better so they have a stake in peace," Netanyahu said.
James Zogby, president of the Arab American Institute in Washington,says Obama must get tough with Israel on West Bank settlement
James Zogby, president of the Arab American Institute in Washington, says Obama must get tough with Israel on West Bank settlement if peace is to be achieved
James Zogby is president of the Arab American Institute in Washington. He says Obama must be tough with Israel on West Bank settlement and the continuing occupation if a solution is to be found.
"Certainly, they [the Israelis] are not going to move unless they are moved, and they are not going to be moved unless the U.S. president says, 'This must end,'" Zogby said.
On the Palestinian side, there are also problems. Palestinians are divided between Fatah, the moderate faction running the West Bank, and Hamas, the militant group that rules in Gaza and refuses to renounce violence. Israel and the United States refuse to engage with Hamas.
Many Israelis and Palestinians are now questioning whether the two-state solution is still possible.
Palestinian author Ali Abu Minnah advocates one bi-national state as an alternative to the two-state solution
Palestinian author Ali Abu Minnah advocates one bi-national state as an alternative to the two-state solution
Ali Abu Minnah is a Palestinian author living in Chicago. He advocates a one-state solution, in other words, a bi-national state.
"The two-state solution is neither available nor stable nor just, and this is why we have opened the discussion," he said.
A one-state solution is rejected by Israel because Jews would soon become a minority.
William Quandt worked in the Carter administration in the 1970s and was involved in negotiations that led to the Egyptian-Israeli Peace Treaty of 1979. He says the two-state solution is the only hope.
"I think the two-state solution comes back into focus for us because there is no good alternative in terms of a negotiated solution," the University of Virginia professor said.
Zogby says Arab states should help with reconstruction in the Gaza Strip and with Palestinian nation building, and also offer Israel incentives for peace.
As Mitchell himself made clear, the task will neither be easy, nor will progress happen overnight.
But the new U.S. administration seems engaged where the previous one was not.>>
www.voanews.com/english/20...6-voa37.cfm
I have always valued this attempt at open dialog and respect the informed and counseled discussion of it's members. I recently read the book Sway, by the Bronfman brothers. The book surveys the literature about what makes us choose emotional rather than logical solutions to crisis. His thesis is that diagnosing, that is labeling and assigning blame, is not useful to the solution of the problem. This tribe is at it's very best when we discuss solutions, not a history no one can now change.
<<Obama Endorses Two-State Solution for Arab-Israeli Conflict
By Mohamed Elshinnawi
Washington
06 February 2009
Shortly after a Gaza ceasefire went into effect between Israel and the Islamic group Hamas, President Barack Obama sent his Middle East envoy to the region to kick-start a process to end the decades-long Palestinian-Israeli conflict.
Special envoy George Mitchell cautions that reaching a peace agreement will be very difficult
US special envoy George Mitchell cautions that reaching a peace agreement will be very difficult
The effort will focus on the so-called "two-state solution," which would establish a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip coexisting peacefully alongside the Jewish state.
"Lasting peace requires more than a long cease-fire, and that's why I will sustain an active commitment to seek two states living side by side in peace and security," Obama said.
Obama sent his special envoy, former Senator George Mitchell, to the region for talks with Arab and Israeli leaders. In Jerusalem, Mitchell said reaching a peace agreement will be tough.
"The tragic violence in Gaza and in southern Israel offers a sober reminder of the very serious and difficult challenges and, unfortunately, the setbacks that will come."
Attempts to evacuate small settlements in the West Bank have sparked violence between Israeli troops and settlers who refuse to leave
Attempts to evacuate small settlements in the West Bank have sparked violence between Israeli troops and Jewish settlers who refuse to leave
Jewish settlements in the occupied West Bank constitute one of the toughest problems on the way to peace.
Some 200 thousand Jewish settlers live there. Most would have to be relocated in Israel proper, under the usual view of the two-state solution.
But Israeli attempts to evacuate some small settlements have sparked violence between Israeli troops and settlers who refuse to leave.
Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has said Israel is willing to remove 60 thousand West Bank settlers for peace, a small fraction.
Likud leader Benjamin Netanyahu has said he will not ask settlers to leave the West Bank
Likud leader Benjamin Netanyahu has said he will not ask settlers to leave the West Bank
Israeli elections in February could make Likud leader Benjamin Netanyahu the next prime minister. He says he will not ask any settlers to leave the West Bank. In November, he suggested he is not for a two-state solution.
"I think that rather than build peace exclusively from the top down with political agreements, we have to add to the political process building peace from the bottom up by making the lives of our Palestinian neighbors a lot better so they have a stake in peace," Netanyahu said.
James Zogby, president of the Arab American Institute in Washington,says Obama must get tough with Israel on West Bank settlement
James Zogby, president of the Arab American Institute in Washington, says Obama must get tough with Israel on West Bank settlement if peace is to be achieved
James Zogby is president of the Arab American Institute in Washington. He says Obama must be tough with Israel on West Bank settlement and the continuing occupation if a solution is to be found.
"Certainly, they [the Israelis] are not going to move unless they are moved, and they are not going to be moved unless the U.S. president says, 'This must end,'" Zogby said.
On the Palestinian side, there are also problems. Palestinians are divided between Fatah, the moderate faction running the West Bank, and Hamas, the militant group that rules in Gaza and refuses to renounce violence. Israel and the United States refuse to engage with Hamas.
Many Israelis and Palestinians are now questioning whether the two-state solution is still possible.
Palestinian author Ali Abu Minnah advocates one bi-national state as an alternative to the two-state solution
Palestinian author Ali Abu Minnah advocates one bi-national state as an alternative to the two-state solution
Ali Abu Minnah is a Palestinian author living in Chicago. He advocates a one-state solution, in other words, a bi-national state.
"The two-state solution is neither available nor stable nor just, and this is why we have opened the discussion," he said.
A one-state solution is rejected by Israel because Jews would soon become a minority.
William Quandt worked in the Carter administration in the 1970s and was involved in negotiations that led to the Egyptian-Israeli Peace Treaty of 1979. He says the two-state solution is the only hope.
"I think the two-state solution comes back into focus for us because there is no good alternative in terms of a negotiated solution," the University of Virginia professor said.
Zogby says Arab states should help with reconstruction in the Gaza Strip and with Palestinian nation building, and also offer Israel incentives for peace.
As Mitchell himself made clear, the task will neither be easy, nor will progress happen overnight.
But the new U.S. administration seems engaged where the previous one was not.>>
www.voanews.com/english/20...6-voa37.cfm
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Re: Obama Endorses Two-State Solution
Fri, February 6, 2009 - 9:48 PMI endorse the UN taking it all over--they created the mess. Install strict democracy for local mayoral issues. It's clear that neither of these people can provide a safe government for their respective people--or the opposing people for that matter. It's time to throw the towel in and move on. -
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Re: Obama Endorses Two-State Solution
Sat, February 7, 2009 - 7:27 AMTHe Norwegian ambassador in Saudi Arabia said Israel's action is like what the Nazis did to the Jews in WW2. Let's see: apparati developed for mass murder/ 10s of thousands of jews killed daily day in day out... Then that depopulation was the goal of the Nazis, and the Gazans population has risen to what 1.2 million compared to 3 times less that amount from 1967--certainly doesn't make her case. Ok, now Israel is on a Literalist's convention with their world view, example being Netanyahu poised to become the next PM. Any time community strives to assert identity, the fences go up and neighbors suffer the consequences. Palestinians are case and point. George Mitchell is a beacon of hope. When people like Netanyahu and his cosmopolitanism as plastic as it seems is the traditional redneck politician coming to power here in the bible belt, develop political animosities, suffering of all parties concerned is become his cause, & not peace otherwise... -
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Re: Obama Endorses Two-State Solution
Tue, February 10, 2009 - 8:11 PMMost Palestinians are advocating a one state, solution that is the nation of Palestine be established, with absolutely no Israel, no Jews, and the great catastrophic be once and forever put in the pages of history. May Allah be praised when the Zionist entity is destroyed,
As long as most Palestinians eight out of 10, from the last poll I read advocate a one state solution, I think it is a hilariously idiotic for any other nation, to think it will represent the Palestinian people's interests by doing something that is contrary to the interests of Palestinians.
The PLO will milk the Americans and the West for any concessions they can, will manage to say we want peace in English and then continue to call for the destruction of the Jewish people in Arabic. At least, is honestly represents the interests of the Palestinian people.
the left live in this la la land of total mental fantasy, misrepresenting the Palestinian people, their goals and aspirations, weaving lies upon lies, false premises upon false premises. For example the fact that Hamas has been stealing warehouses full of humanitarian aid to the Palestinian people to restock their underground bunkers, so that they can hide in the casualties above ground can increase in the next conflict but they will initiate and Israel will be blamed for. There will be no world outcry for these atrocities, but if the same humanitarian aid has held up at the border (because no one wants to drive the truck into that madness) you'll be sure to hear the world cry out how bad Israel is.
Why don't you guys just be honest enough to also admit that you want the destruction of Israel, the Torah to be an irrelevant document of the past, and the God of the Jews, to be an abstract concept of deity, like all a flowering new age everything is good teaching that you embrace . -
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Unsu...
Re: Obama Endorses Two-State Solution
Tue, February 10, 2009 - 8:29 PMLook familiar?
tribes.tribe.net/mideastpo...11e0556962
"the God of the Jews" is the God of everyone or it is no God at all. -
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Re: Obama Endorses Two-State Solution
Wed, February 11, 2009 - 6:03 AM"the God of the Jews" is the God of everyone or it is no God at all." Then what do you call the dar al-harb & the Dar al-Islam. Same thing bro., I am about a transcendental bridge thru our beliefs not at variance, but where we'd agree. You are just disagreeing, perhaps--I could be wrong. Toe for toe the Muslims tote around supremacy as much as the literalist jews. Fundamentalism abound, and in my sense of ascetic intention, cleaving to belief at all, is merely self-indulgent self-preservation...weird, and to be given no places, as negativity & identity assertion necessarily builds walls. How healthy would it be for me--A jew--to visit certain Islamic countries? Aren't there a few where I am not welcome: Toe For Toe man. -
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Unsu...
Re: Obama Endorses Two-State Solution
Wed, February 11, 2009 - 6:18 AM"I am about a transcendental bridge thru our beliefs not at variance, but where we'd agree."
So what problem do you have with me stating that there is no race that has a claim to G-d?
Toe for toe?
Sorry. I'm not sparring with you.
The G-d of the Jews is the G-d of the trees. The G-d of the Muslims. The G-d of the pagans. Monotheism means ONE without an "other".
TAWHID.
How could it be any other way? -
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Re: Obama Endorses Two-State Solution
Wed, February 11, 2009 - 1:12 PMUNITY=Nice--that is why I said, unless I am mistaken, something to that affect in there. I just saw you implicating what I thought was just a Jewish supposed sense... I didn't mean to be confrontational. Ijtihad, another jurisprudence creative view into Islam: as Atheism is in Judaism--otherly, meaning the best Talmudist comes from the Atheist Jew--Wouk's conveyance... And, Zalman Schaechter-Shalomi says HE, himself is a Jewish adherent to a generic religion. Doing the Right-On, bro. KNOWone, with your language skill, drop your opinion in the thread about LangUage, I started. That is so not political.
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Re: Obama Endorses Two-State Solution
Tue, February 10, 2009 - 10:42 PM"Why don't you guys just be honest enough to also admit that you want the destruction of Israel, the Torah to be an irrelevant document of the past, and the God of the Jews, to be an abstract concept of deity... [but not the rest of it]"
Okay, I'll be the first to admit it... 1) I didn't read all of your post... and 2) yes I agree I'm sick of this shit, I want the destruction of Israel for the following reasons:
~I'm sick of hearing about it
~I'm sick of the US allowing the 2 sides to torture the other's respective population
~It would piss of a lot of fucking Christians--YAY!
~Our economy could use an influx of useful Jews right now
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Re: Obama Endorses Two-State Solution
Tue, February 10, 2009 - 10:43 PMOh did I say that???? :)
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Re: Obama Endorses Two-State Solution
Tue, February 10, 2009 - 10:52 PM -
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Re: Obama Endorses Two-State Solution
Wed, February 11, 2009 - 7:38 AMThe Israeli-Palestinian conflict is by no means a simple two-sided conflict with all
Israelis (or even all Israeli Jews) sharing one point of view and all Palestinians another. In
both communities, there are individuals and groups who advocate total territorial removal
of the other community, those who advocate a two-state solution, and those who advocate
a bi-national solution of a single secular state encompassing present-day Israel and the
Gaza strip and the West Bank.
Since the Oslo Accord, the governments of Israel and the Palestinian Authority (PA) have
been officially committed to an eventual two-state solution.
People who sympathize with Palestinians tend to view the conflict as an illegitimate
military occupation of Palestine, supported with military and diplomatic assistance from
the U.S. Many tend to view the armed Palestinian resistance within the West Bank and
Gaza Strip as a right granted by the Geneva conventions and the United Nations Charter,
and some extend this view to attacks within Israel proper.
Those sympathetic to Israel tend to view the conflict as a campaign of terrorism
perpetrated by Palestinian groups such as Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Fatah and others, and
supported by other states in the region and the majority of the Palestinian people. Many
tend to believe that the occupation is necessary for the security of Israel. This sharp
contrast of views on the nature of the conflict has been a key obstacle to resolution. -
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Re: Obama Endorses Two-State Solution
Wed, February 11, 2009 - 8:09 PMThat's for the BS over-view. I'm glad you have a hobby here in this conflict. I just see as all sides of this conflict being disgusting and it needs to stop. ;) So all youz Jews and Muslims start beating up on the Christians who are funding you will you usher in the Messiah. Thanks. ;)
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Re: Obama Endorses Two-State Solution
Wed, February 11, 2009 - 9:50 AMLaughing out load
thanks when all esle fails. laughing at our self really works -
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Re: Obama Endorses Two-State Solution
Wed, February 11, 2009 - 8:04 PM"Violence is not merely killing another. It is violence when we use a sharp word, when we make a gesture to brush away a person, when we obey because there is fear. So violence isn't merely organized butchery in the name of God, in the name of society or country. Violence is much more subtle, much deeper, and we are inquiring into the very depths of violence.
When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind."
- Jiddu Krishnamurti
"He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder."
"Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism - how passionately I hate them!"
"Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind."
- Albert Einstein
"Thinking men and women the world over are beginning to realize that patriotism is too narrow and limited a conception to meet the necessities of our time."
"The people are urged to be patriotic ... by sacrificing their own children. Patriotism requires allegience to the flag, which means obedience and readiness to kill father, mother, brother, sister."
"Conceit, arrogance, and egotism are the essentials of patriotism. [...] Patriotism assumes that our globe is divided into little spots, each one surrounded by an iron gate. Those who have had the fortune of being born on some particular spot, consider themselves better, nobler, grander, more intelligent than the living beings inhabiting any other spot. It is, therefore, the duty of everyone living on that chosen spot to fight, kill, and die in the attempt to impose his superiority upon all the others."
"We Americans claim to be a peace-loving people. We hate bloodshed; we are opposed to violence. Yet we go into spasms of joy over the possibility of projecting dynamite bombs from flying machines upon helpless citizens. We are ready to hang, electrocute, or lynch anyone, who, from economic necessity, will risk his own life in the attempt upon that of some industrial magnate. Yet our hearts swell with pride at the thought that America is becoming the most powerful nation on earth, and that she will eventually plant her iron foot on the necks of all other nations. Such is the logic of patriotism."
"When we have undermined the patriotic lie, we shall have cleared the path for the great structure where all shall be united into a universal brotherhood— a truly free society."
"Leo Tolstoy [...] defines patriotism as the principle that will justify the training of wholesale murderers
- Emma Goldman"
"By 'nationalism'... I mean the habit of identifying oneself with a single nation or other unit, placing it beyond good and evil and recognising no other duty than that of advancing its interests. Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By 'patriotism' I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality."
- George Orwell
"Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons."
- Bertrand Russell
"Patriotism ... for rulers is nothing else than a tool for achieving their power-hungry and money-hungry goals, and for the ruled it means renouncing their human dignity, reason, conscience, and slavish submission to those in power. ... Patriotism is slavery."
- Leo Tolstoy
"The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice — and always has been."
- Mark Twain -
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Re: Obama Endorses Two-State Solution
Mon, March 2, 2009 - 9:08 PMGood quotes all.... -
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Re: Obama Endorses Two-State Solution
Mon, March 2, 2009 - 9:09 PMAnd in the light of these quotes, listen to Obama's speeches...
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